Het grote Lyngdorf topic

[bmateijsen]

Door het gebruik van cornerwoofers (geen subwoofers!) maak je in combinatie met een monitor gewoon een full range speaker.

Groet, 

Bjorn

Zit me toch nog iets niet lekker. Een tijdje geleden was er een topic dat ging over het gebruik van "full range"- speakers en daar werd gestelt dat door rondom full-range te gebruiken er toch een verplaatsing van het laag waarneembaar was (ik denk bijvoorbeeld aan een ruimteschip in SWII waarbij je het laag van achter naar voren voelt/hoort komen). Hoe is dat dan bij het gebruik van monitors (bijv.80i´s, 90i van final) i.c.m. met de hoeksubs van Lyngdorf of subs in zijn algemeenheid.
Kortom:
- is verplaatsing van het laag bij gebruik van full-range rondom een feit?
- zo ja, kan dit zelfde effect ook gerealiseerd worden met monitors i.c.m. sub(s)?

Danny

[Shorty]

Boven plm. 100 Hz is geluid lokaliseerbaar. En aangezien de cornerwoofers tot 400 Hz gaan mag je verwachten dat alles boven 100 Hz inderdaad hoorbaar vanaf een ander punt komt dan (de rest van) het midden en hoog. Betekent dit niet dat je de cornerwoofers in een rechte lijn (vanaf de luisterplek) achter de satellieten moet zetten?

VrGr,

Bart J.

[Movievault]

Boven plm. 100 Hz is geluid lokaliseerbaar. En aangezien de cornerwoofers tot 400 Hz gaan mag je verwachten dat alles boven 100 Hz inderdaad hoorbaar vanaf een ander punt komt dan (de rest van) het midden en hoog. Betekent dit niet dat je de cornerwoofers in een rechte lijn (vanaf de luisterplek) achter de satellieten moet zetten?

VrGr,

Bart J.

Geluid beneden de 100 hz is ook zeker en vast localiseerbaar.
Ik heb de test gedaan met 2 subs. 1 achter mij en een aan de voorkant. Duidelijk voel je een verplaatsing van het laag.

[Staaled]

Boven plm. 100 Hz is geluid lokaliseerbaar. En aangezien de cornerwoofers tot 400 Hz gaan mag je verwachten dat alles boven 100 Hz inderdaad hoorbaar vanaf een ander punt komt dan (de rest van) het midden en hoog. Betekent dit niet dat je de cornerwoofers in een rechte lijn (vanaf de luisterplek) achter de satellieten moet zetten?

VrGr,

Bart J.

Voorzover ik weet wordt alle geluid met een golflengte langer dan de conusdiameter ongebundeld weergegeven.
De cornerwoofers zijn mits goed afgeregeld beslist niet te lokaliseren.

Salut,Hipster

[Movievault]

De vraag is wil je dat wel?

Als er voor mij een instrument aan het spelen is met een freq van om en bij de 40 hz wil ik weten waar het staat.

Bij stereo wil ik hem localiseren.

Ik bedoel daarmee, het laag moet worden behandeld net als de rest van de muziek.
En dat kan volgens mij alleen met full range speakers.

[Audiofiel]

Mijn ervaring is ook dat 100 Hz prima is te localiseren. Mijn subs <100 Hz bij de Acoustat One electrostaten waren te duiden als de muziek laag genoeg ging. Testen met lagere frequenties gaven aan dat ik dat ook hoorde bij 80 Hz en in steeds mindere mate bij 60 Hz. Voor mij lag de grens van duidelijk traceerbaar bij 50 Hz...

[patrick_vdb]

Hi,

De cornerwoofers zijn mits goed afgeregeld beslist niet te lokaliseren.

Dan waren de cornerwoofers tijdens het VAD 2005 dus niet goed afgeregeld want daar vond ik ze duidelijk lokaliseerbaar.

Tot nu toe vind ik de implementatie van eens sub-monitor combinatie nog altijd tricky. Je krijgt weliswaar een full-range weergave maar beduidend anders dan de weergave van een full-range luidspreker of een die verder doorloopt in het laag dan een monitor. Ik heb redelijk wat succesvol geintegreerde sub-monitor systemen gehoord maar nog nooit een die volledig af was cq waarbij totaal geen aanwijzing in het geprojecteerde geluidsbeeld te horen viel dat er met een sub-monitor systeem werd gedraaid.

is verplaatsing van het laag bij gebruik van full-range rondom een feit?

Full-range rondom in een surroundsetting voegt meer toe dan enkel pannings van het laag indien dit aanwezig is op de bron. Of verplaatsing van het laag bij gebruik van full-range rondom een feit is, hangt volledig af van de bron. DD en DTS hebben een full-range signaal ter beschikking voor de 5 of 6 main-channels, indien er gebruik van wordt gemaakt (full-range pannings) is het dus een feit.

zo ja, kan dit zelfde effect ook gerealiseerd worden met monitors i.c.m. sub(s)?

Je zult dan ook subs rondom moeten plaatsen waarbij nog steeds de kanttekening blijft staan dat een sub-monitor anders klinkt dan een daadwerkelijk meer full-range luidspreker.

mvrg

Patrick

[Jenkins]

Ik ben toch wel erg nieuwsgierig naar de demo die Beter Beeld & Geluid op 20 juli bij "mijn" audioclub
(http://aob.hifi.nl/ --> klik dan op "clubavonden)
komt geven!

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jenkins

[myself]

Ik ben toch wel erg nieuwsgierig naar de demo die Beter Beeld & Geluid op 20 juli bij "mijn" audioclub
(http://aob.hifi.nl/ --> klik dan op "clubavonden)
komt geven!

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jenkins

arrrggghhhhhh, moet ik nog langer op de 2200 wachten   

[Deleted member]

Ik ben toch wel erg nieuwsgierig naar de demo die Beter Beeld & Geluid op 20 juli bij "mijn" audioclub
(http://aob.hifi.nl/ --> klik dan op "clubavonden)
komt geven!

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jenkins

Leuk! Er komt neem ik aan een uitvoerig verslag op jullie site? 

[Jenkins]

Leuk! Er komt neem ik aan een uitvoerig verslag op jullie site? 

Zoals gebruikelijk, Antoine!

[Boontje]

beetje offtopic, maar gaat over sponsoren. 

gefeliciteerd met je verjaardag Garmt 

[R]

oh ja, glad vergeten. Garmt feli...

[garmtz]

Thanks jongens!

[Jenkins]

Verhip, das waar!

Garmtz; gefeliciteerd!

[Draiz]

Ah, van harte!

[garmtz]

Ah, van harte!

Dank u!

[Draiz]

Wat heb je gekregen van het meisje? Een powerchord of een weekendje weg naar een dorpje waar ze gerandeerd geen hifiwinkel hebben. Overigens Calexico komt naar paradiso. Ik ga morgen even checken of er nog kaarten zijn!

[VlisChris]

Van harte Garmt!

[Deleted member]

Ik ben toch wel erg nieuwsgierig naar de demo die Beter Beeld & Geluid op 20 juli bij "mijn" audioclub
(http://aob.hifi.nl/ --> klik dan op "clubavonden)
komt geven!

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jenkins

En! Hoe was de demo? 

[Jenkins]

En! Hoe was de demo? 

Helaas; Ik was er niet bij, gisteren avond. 
Ik had Garmtz al vantevoren m'n excuses aangeboden en HSN gevraagd voor een gedetailleerde resencie.
Heb veel vertrouwen in dat hij ons snel op de hoogte gaat brengen hoe het is gegaan.

(had een geldig excuus om afwezig te zijn, trouwens: Toine Dingemans heeft gisteren avond mijn luisterkamer eens goed doorgemeten en met luisterproeven beoordeeld!!!!  )

[garmtz]

Even een apart topic gemaakt over de show...

http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=46972.0

[myself]

2 leuke reviews in Hifi +

Music Matters by Alan Sircom

Roy Gregory wasn't the only Hi-Fi+ type invited to a flat hotel just outside Copenhagen to get our heads round the Lyngdorf concepts. I was there, too. And the pair of us tried hard to steer clear of falling into 'naughty schoolboys on a class visit' syndrome. It almost worked, although there was a minor rebellion during the England v Trinidad & Tobago World Cup play-off. And another one involving random pickled herrings in the Tivoli Gardens, but I have been sworn on pain of death never to recount that one.

Largely what we heard from the systems played concurred; that Room Perfect was in many ways a high-end solution to a problem automatically solved by applying a high-end mentality and using high-end products. That the demonstration was interesting, but slightly hobbled by aspects potentially extraneous to Room Perfect itself. And that we all came away with a sense of heightened interest in the whole Lyngdorf schema, but not entirely convinced this would be a system we'd deploy in our own homes.

But perhaps we were all doing the Room Perfect system, and the greater Lyngdorf DSP system entailed within the products, a bit of a disservice. At one point in the test, we were given a chance to set up the system ourselves, to see how easy it really is. Stick a microphone (connected to a Room Perfect-equipped Lyngdorf TDA2200 amplifier) in the listening position and a few randomly-selected points around the room. The amp then runs through five minutes of what seems like BBC Radiophonic Workshop sound effects from 1970s Dr Who episodes in each position and then displays just how close to the optimum Room Perfect sound you are (the front panel displays a percentage score – over 90% and you have pretty much achieved good equalisation). Even an idiot could equalise their room in about 10 minutes... unless you hire a crack team of hi-fi reviewing idiots, who will take three times as long.

Peter Lyngdorf and the team were keen for us to hear how well this worked in equalising Lyngdorf's own speakers to the room, as well as how good it is at transforming a pair of large B&W 802D speakers. And, with varying degrees of success, the Lyngdorf boys achieved their goal. But the power of playtime was too great to resist; out went the huge floorstanders, in came a pair of mildly midrange B&W DM602 S3 stand-mounters.

Now the use of Room Perfect became a bit clearer. That "99% of the people get 90% of the sound" claim Peter Lyngdorf made to Roy made a lot more sense. In terms of the room interaction, it raises the bar on all speakers by a couple of notches. But if the bar is already set pretty damn high thanks to the design of the speaker, this improvement is hardly noticeable. Worse, the loss of the extremely fine detailing that high-end equipment is so good at resolving could potentially undermine any improvements in room interaction. That's not a worry with middle market systems and the DM602 S3 with Room Perfect was a much greater success than more upmarket systems.

It would be a huge mistake to denigrate the Room Perfect concept and dismiss it as a lo-fi DSP sound improver. It's far more than that. There are many high-enders who, by virtue of being unfortunately lodged in a room with a reverb time measured in aeons or having a room so dead anechoic chambers get jealous, simply cannot make the most of their systems. Room Perfect goes a long way to edress the balance and is a lot cheaper than moving house. Those with less high-end aspirations will find a lot to recommend in the Room Perfect concept, too. It won't make a Wilson out of a Wharfedale, but it will make the best of a bad job and bring a speaker to life where no life was hitherto possible.

Actually, where it works best is when you aren't in the hot seat. If you are the one and only listener sitting in your Eames chair in the perfect position in an acoustically good room, then the chances of Room Perfect yanking your music chain is slim. If you sit off axis or enjoy walking round your room while listening, you'll end up finding what Room Perfect does to your tastes. In fact, the improvement becomes almost laughably big when listening in the rear corners of the room (why you'd do this in reality is beyond me, however).

But there's another aspect of Lyngdorf DSP that's even more anathema and even more useful. There's a move to provide custom curves for recordings within the digital decoding inside the amplifier itself. These curves can be used to brighten up dull recordings, slug bright recordings and maximise the potential of MP3 recordings with low sample rates.

This is exceptionally dodgy territory for the audiophile. We like our music unsullied... but deep down we know this is impossible. In fact, mild DSP tone shaping can help cut through the limits put upon the recording by the studio or the transmission method deployed. This is another double-edged sword; careful DSP can improve the lot of an almost unplayable recording, but less careful applications mean a sound far removed from either 'enjoyable' or 'accurate'. Still, never fear, Lyngdorf also had an AtoD converter on show, including an optional phono-stage. DSP does wonders when it comes to all the various replay curves that record companies have applied over the years. What could have more audiophile cred (or be more ironic) than that...

I suspect these two DSP functions are actually going to be far bigger than we give them credit. What better way for someone to make the jump from iPod to hi-fi than to have the hi-fi make the best of those nasty downloads and improve the sound of the room in the process.

Hopefully, by the end of the year, I shall be moving to a bigger house, with a larger and new listening room. That will be the time when the Room Perfect system comes into play. If I use it after the move for a while, without acclimatising to the sound of the new room, will I ever be able to live without it?

[myself]

Playing The System by Roy Gregory

And What A System It Is...

This month I flew to Denmark to visit Lyngdorf Audio, once TacT, a trip that occasioned more than its fair share of navel gazing. The object of the exercise was for them to demonstrate their spanking new acoustic correction system, dubbed Room Perfect and the subject of various patents as well as considerable OEM interest. But we're getting a little ahead of the curve here. Why "Lyngdorf" is probably the question you should be asking.

Well, whilst you might not be familiar with the name, Peter Lyngdorf has been one of Europe's major players in the domestic hi-fi scene since the late 70s. Along the way he's been a prime mover in or owned Denmark's largest high-end retail chain, NAD, Snell Acoustics, Gryphon, Dali and of course Tact, amongst others. The latter still exists in the US, run by Peter's former partner, hence the name change. The significance of that name lies in the fact that here you have one of the hi-fi industry's most influential and successful personalities demonstrating just how important he thinks this technology and developmental direction is. Add to that the fact that, faced with a rather messy divorce rom Tact, his response was to hire that system's biggest critic to develop its successor and you realise that the man is as creative as he is far-sighted.

Enter then Jan Abildgaard Pedersen, the engineer behind the revolutionary Beolab 5 loudspeaker and chief designer on the Room Perfect project. Now Jan is a mightily impressive guy in a soft-spoken and quietly confident sort of way. Given my natural tendency towards things analogue and conceptually simple, anything involving huge amounts of DSP is always going to be a pretty hard sell as far as I'm concerned, but I'll happily admit to being impressed by the results. I'm not going to bore you with details about the system, its advances over the competition or the demonstration itself. Suffice to say, the Room Perfect compensation was dramatically more effective than any other such system I've experienced, as well as being far less obtrusive in musical terms. But the question I found myself asking was, did I actually need it?

The problem with any demonstration is achieving the desired result without distracting and confusing side effects rearing their ugly heads. In this respect at least, this demo was only partially successful, succeeding mainly in demonstrating just how complex a system it really is, and how fragile the cues are that separate meaningful music from meaningless noise. Working at its best (and one of the real breakthroughs offered by Room Perfect is the simplicity of the set-up procedure) it's capable of excellent results. But the devil is in the details and the layers of options, the sheer complexity of the technology itself (as opposed to its operation) creates the opportunity for error. Sods law can be relied on to do the rest.

Initially then, results were less than stellar, which is the aural equivalent of being two-nil down after five minutes; it requires quite a comeback. That subsequent investigation banished the gremlins and achieved the desired result is thus, in its own way, even more impressive. So why wasn't I clamoring to get my grubby little mitts on a review sample? Fact is, whilst the demonstration was audibly conclusive – Room Perfect definitely left you with a smoother, more neutral presentation, I can't honestly say that it was actually musically more enjoyable than a well set-up system running in bypass mode; different certainly, but better, more communicative, more real? Of that I was not convinced.

What I couldn't do, however, was put my finger on the reason why: until later that is.

Moving on we were discussing with Peter the Lyngdorf digital amps and the subject of digital interfacing. I expressed surprise that the company put so much effort into extracting decent performance from RCA interconnection, when BNC offers a superior basic standard with which to work. "Ah', came his response 'nobody has BNC cables so they just end up using RCA to BNC adaptors. That's no benefit at all. What I want to do is make sure that 99% of people get 90% of the music, all of the time." Which is when it struck me... As impressive and laudable as Lyngdorf's achievements are (and make no mistake about that) they're not shooting for the same goal as me. As far as I'm concerned, high-end audio is almost diametrically opposed to Peter's stated aim. It's all about getting 100% of the music to 1% of the people – some of the time, if you're lucky.

Now, one is not superior to or more worthwhile than the other; they're just different. Why does that matter? Because if Lyngdorf's achievements are viewed through a high-end glass then the conclusion tends to be that they offer a solution to a non-existent problem. Not only do they start from the assumption of a badly placed speaker in an acoustically problematic space (when most serious audio nuts achieve something considerably better than that) but their own demonstration actually serves to show just how adaptable human hearing can be.

But, if we allow them their premise; if we assume that we want to get great music out of less than great systems with far from ideal positioning – that's another matter. Suddenly Room Perfect looks like bicycle repairman's magic toolbox; compact, lightweight and capable of solving any problem faced by man (well, any problem on two wheels, anyway). Looked at in that light, I might not be desperate to get the Room Perfect system into my listening room, but I am intrigued. In an industry that risks dying from the bottom up, we could do with all the help we can get. In the end Lyngdorf Audio might not be high-end; they could just be a lot more important than that.

[myself]

kortom: in een perfect uitgebalanceerde akoestische ruimte en een idem set heb je geen behoefte aan Room Perfect. In bijna alle andere situaties is RP een goede aanvulling/uitbreiding op je set.

Bij slechte akoestiesche ruimtes of minder highend (<100.000 of zo) gewoon proberen dus