Topic: As of now Eric Abraham from Cinepro

[J.A.F._Doorhof]

They make some of the best poweramps in the World (according to our opinion and many magazines), and this is a company with not only brawls but also brains.

So we are proud to present the Owner himself Eric Abraham from Cinepro.

As you will allready know ITC Home Theater is starting up the distribution for Cinepro in the Netherlands, and we are still looking for some motivated dealers. So if you like what you hear let it be heared in the shops and websites.

Have fun Eric, and our members.

Greetings,
Frank

[garmtz]

Welcome Mr. Abraham and thanks for sharing some time with us!

I am eagerly awaiting the moment I can get a taste of your new DTC-10 pre-amp and 2k6 or 3k6 power amp and have a 2 questions for you in the mean time:

• I am a great fan of Lexicon pre-pros and have seen an eerie similarity in the look of the new Lexicon MC-12 pre-pro and the Cinepro DTC-10. Can you explain what's the reason for this?
  
• Is the new "Music 7" surround mode only available for 2-channel sources and not 5.1 channel? And can you tell us something about the backgrounds of this new surround mode? Does it improve on Dolby ProLogic II Music? And how?
  
• Is the "digitally derived surround sound" from the headphone jack a form of the new Dolby HeadPhone decoding engine?
  
• Is there a possibility for all analog 5.1 pass-through?
  

Thanks in advance for taking time to answer some of my questions!

[Special_member]

Hello,
Frank-

Thank you for inviting me into your forum.  I hope that I can answer your members questions on a timely basis (It is getting very late over here in San Francisco)

Also, thank you for your kind words about Cinepro amplifiers.  We take great pride in designing and building them, and it is gratifying to hear that we are appreciated for our efforts

garmtz-

Yes, there is a resemblance with the DTC-10 and the Lexicon MC-12.  We penned the initial design back in 1999, well before Lexicon announced or showed the MC-12.  If you think about it, there is really only so many ways to mount buttons in groups, and we both seem to hit on similar looks. The little black .250” buttons just became available in the past 6 months, and we fell in love with the look.  Pure coincidence, I believe.

The "Music 7" mode is our proprietary 7 channel derived surround mode that can be used with any input, 2 channel or Digital.  It is basically a custom algorithm that takes front channel information and blends it with existing back channel info (in the case of 5.1 music) to add a little depth to the sound. It adds a very subtle delay along with some room acoustic models to simulate a small hall.  But, the other of these surround augmentations that I have heard are too heavy handed, and muk up the clarity of the music.  I think ours is very musical. It is adjustable (the amount of effects in the rear) through the Windows setup program.

Yes, it utilizes a chip that is also used to generate the Dolby headphone surround program, but I am not sure yet if we will license it to will allow us to use the Dolby Logo.

The 5.1 pass-through (actually 7.1) is pure analogue.  We use digitally controlled resistor ladder attenuators, but the entire path is analogue.

[SiR-ROUND]

Welcome Mr. Abraham and thank you for your time...

I found another simularity in products myself, if you would be so kind to follow this link to a post I made:

Furman/Cinepro?

The resemblance is no coincidence I think...

As I mention in that topic, the pricing difference is to be neglected, so it's not stealing and selling "fairy dust"...

Are there any differences besides looks?

And another question: who was first to develope this line conditioner?

For the smaller sequencers/conditioners, are those based on Furman products too, or is it the other way around?

I know that Furman also makes products for the European market, my guess is Cinepro will also start releasing the line-conditioners in 220V versions, if you didn't already?

That's it for now, thanks in advance and greetings,

Manfred

[garmtz]

Thank you very much for your answers Mr. Abraham. I have one additional question:

The 5.1 pass-through (actually 7.1) is pure analogue.  We use digitally controlled resistor ladder attenuators, but the entire path is analogue.

Thank you for the correction. My question should have stated 7.1.

Does the above mean the bass management is done in the analogue domain? And what about time alignment? Why didn't you choose for some form of digital bass management/time alignment by digitizing the 7.1 inputs, or have the user make a decision between analogue and digital 7.1 inputs: one having a straight path and the other having the possibility to do time-alignment/bass-management/post-processing?

Eagerly awaiting you response and thanks again for you time.

[Special_member]

Manfred,

No, the similarity between current Cinepro power products and Furman products is no coincidence.  We are both built in the same factory, and share many metal parts for cost savings.
Cinepro versions are optimized for high end home users, whereas Furman units are designed primarily for professional and sound reinforcement use.
The Cinepro versions all have one extra stage of RFI filtering, and all Cinepro units exclusively have Digital Isolated Outlets.  These sockets have yet another filter set specifically designed to squelch the RF noise that components with large CPU's (such as DVD players, processors, etc>) can leak back into the common power line and reduce overall system performance slightly.  
Also, in our domestic versions, we use slightly different power transformers that are quieter and have lower source impedance for improved transient ability.
Cinepro and Furman have had this cross-marketing alliance since 1996.

We are looking into more European models in the future, both with Furman and some new models that will be exclusive to Cinepro.


garmtz-

We intentionally left the analogue pass thru inputs purely analogue.  Bass management (mostly engaging crossovers in the main outputs, and summing bass capabilities to the subwoofer outputs) is truly done in the analogue domain.
We intend these inputs to be pristine, so we did not want to bring a digital signal path in or every DA and AD with the pass thru circuit path.  Our goal was to create a little audiophile preamp within a digital processor to serve the audiophile user.
As an aside, the DTC-10 can be used for BOTH mulichannel surround by using the 5.1 section of the bypass, and the additional two pass thru outlets can be connected to a two channel amp and speakers (with the inputs coming from a phono preamp or outboard DA converter to drive a separate 2 channel high end audio system in the next room (or same room).  You have to be a raving lunatic audiophile to want this, like  me and............

[J.A.F._Doorhof]

Hi Eric,

We talked at the Cedia about DVD-Audio/SACD and the possibilities for digital outputs. Like Firewire or 3x SPDIF. At that moment we did not yet know what the future would bring, it this moment it looks like it's going to 3x SPDIF (if we believe Meridian).

What will Cinepro do ?
Do we wait for a REAL standard, or will there be a early update with for example 3x SPDIF. It appears that the digital stream can be fairly easy tapped off from inside the players.

Greetings,
Frank

[Special_member]

Frank,

Since there is no standard, I hesistate to venture a guess on this one.  Cinepro has always had a policy of upgrading previous owners for a very reasonable cost, so if Digital multichannl audio becomes a reality (I have my doubts), then of course we will upgrade if it is mechanically feaseable.

[garmtz]

You have to be a raving lunatic audiophile to want this, like  me and............

Indeed, me... I am a raving lunatic audiophile who likes LPs (just check my homepage) AND all things surround and digital in the SAME room... Man, I must be REALLY crazy!

Thanks again for your answers!

[SiR-ROUND]

Thanks for your answer Mr. Abraham...

I hope Cinepro line conditioning units will soon hit the European market...

I think there's hardly any competition in the costsegment you are in...

Frank and I talked a little about your products yesterday and he also hopes that he can soon test and review your LC products... Right Frank?

Greetings and best wishes,

Manfred

[Special_member]

garmtz-

Well there are at least two of us-hopefully more.

I look forward to your input after you get a chance to hear a DTC-10.  That is if Frank can bear to part with it.

Manfred,

Interest in Europe and Russia is rapidly increasing for our LC products.  As demand dictates, we will design products specially for that market.  For now, we do offer an excellent AC line balancer...the PowerPRO 215.  It really does noticeably improve most any system.  Noticeably.

Thanks to all for the questions-this really isn't so bad...

[jaco]

As a remark to the post of Frank. Meridian is doing 3 times SP-DIFF with their own encryption. This beacuase their filosophy is going digital all the way to the speakers.
They needed to have something, and as there is not an open standard yet they made this work.

Mos likely (and i really hope it will be so) the 3 SPDIFF inputs will also accept non encrypted signals, just as it were 3 times a stereo digital input. This way we could adapt a brand X player for this.

One question from me on the analogue pass thrue.
It seems there is not time alignment being done. Is this true ? This will force you to install all speakers in a circle and sit in the middle.
I can understand it might be a philosophy to keep everything analogue, but is it not more easy nowdays to implement digital crossovers withouth phase shift, while analogue ones always have a phase shift ?


Jaco

[J.A.F._Doorhof]

For all people intrested in the cinepro pre and poweramp.
In the new year we will be doing a little roadshow with these two products mated with the Eichmann Express interlinks.

I already talked to Garmt for a test on hifi.nl and we are getting some intrest of the magazines  , after that we will give some customers the oppertunity to hear the products in THEIR own surroundings.

This all to make the Cinepro products well known in the Netherlands. But be warned when you hear the products there is no way back (I know).

Greetings,
Frank

[J.A.F._Doorhof]

Hi Eric,

While we were talking about digital DVD-Audio, one of our forum members (Jaco) gave me this link.

Maybe very intressting for you:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=402660

How fast things can go  

Greetings,
Frank

[garmtz]

Frank,

The link you posted above is linking to a site made by the same people that make the excellent SMR Home Theater and Audio Forums (http://www.smr-forums.com), which also houses the official Lexicon forum.

On this forum, a discussion was opened on the use of the term "Logic 7" on the web site for the Cinepro DTC-10. As a Lexicon owner, I was a bit concerned about this, as I know "Logic 7" is a registered trademark of Harman International (of which Lexicon is part).  My question to Mr. Abraham is how to solve this issue, as it could mean a case of trademark infringement. Also, incorrect use of the names of some of the surround modes, like "DTS Neo 7" don't come about as quite professional. Why not use only the official terms (the first terms are the ones mentioned on your site, the second set is the "official" name):

"DTS 5 Channel" - DTS
"DTS NEO 7 Channel" - DTS Neo:6
"DTS LOGIC 7" -
"DTS Matrix 7" -
"DTS ES Discrete" - DTS-ES Discrete 6.1
"Dolby EX" - Dolby Digital EX

All are literally taken from the text.

Also, I detected a few small other errors in the text: "(...)The DTC-1- is also future proof(...)" and "(...)The entire DSP engine and Digital to Analogue chips are contained on a single, easily removable module that can
be easily changed in the future as new  technology available(...)".

Also, be advised that not all decoding modes can be "auto-sensed", although this is suggested in the text.

The HT-bunch are a very critical and precise audience (I know I am), and small errors on a web site can really put some people off...

Myself, I hope your product will do great and hope people will really like the DTC-10. This is all meant as positive feedback!

[jaco]

I do not see an answer on my question yet.
Is there time alignment done on the analogue input ?
I assume not if that is built as analogue as possible.

That would be a serious problem for me, as i wrote a few posts back: i cannot sit in the middle of all my speakers, and that would be needed without time alignment.

Jaco

[J.A.F._Doorhof]

As far as I know only Bassmanagement is done in the analogue circuit. I don't know if time allingment would be possible without resampling the information, or you should use some analogue delay unit, but then I would prefer resampling on 192Khz.

Garmt,
Maybe Cinepro uses their own way of programming the soundformats, like Meridian. In other words they use not the official way to decode DTS or DD, but an enhanced way. I heard the Meridian for the first time and was blown away.

Have to wait a little while on the DTC-10, so I'll be very anxious to hear this little wonder.

It appears to be having a frontpage review in the Stereophile guide to the HT.

Greetings,
Frank