Milestones speaker met Thiel units

[Mark Cortenraad]

Nice Kaino...give the speaker some room, if possible

Mark

[kaino]

Nice Kaino...give the speaker some room, if possible

Mark

Hi,
already changed the arrangement of "Ceramique"

[SCK]

Hello Accu-Tonis!
Is there any new developement on the milestones-filter?
Currently I´m listening with a "soup sandwich" and now I´m considering to try the milestones!
Greetings
Sascha

[fgroen]

I'm actually running the milestones with the most recent filters to date. Very nice and balanced presentation, a bit on-edge in the bass department, but that would require some tweaking depending on the listening situation. My listening room is quite dampened, and I reckon the speakers will be more balanced in a slightly more reverberant situation.

[Mark Cortenraad]

I think I'm running also the latest filter. I agree the upper bass, but that was what I was looking for. Changed from 4,7 mH to 5,6 mH.
(All old parts for sale  )

Biggest improvement to my opinion is the Mundorf Silver-Gold in tweeter section: big, no very big space improvement.

[Marc Heijligers]

I'm actually running the milestones with the most recent filters to date. Very nice and balanced presentation, a bit on-edge in the bass department, but that would require some tweaking depending on the listening situation. My listening room is quite dampened, and I reckon the speakers will be more balanced in a slightly more reverberant situation.

This is indeed true; the Milestones go very deep in their bass, so due to the large wave lengths in the bass the room acoustics play a dominant role in their perceived sound.

What makes the Milestones complex to design is to create a balance between the fundament region (say 125-400Hz), and the bass region (below 125 Hz). As the width of the cabinet is small compared to the woofer dimensions, the baffle does not help in creating a lot of forward energy. The frequency response starts to decay from 400Hz downwards, requiring baffle step compensation from 400Hz downward. The problem is that then also the bass region is baffle step corrected. With the much larger wave lengths, the room acoustics (e.g. back walls) become part of the reflector, and hence depending on whether the room is dampening mid/treble, this creates a balance or unbalance.

One way preventing this, would be to cross over at say 200Hz, and let the mid range determine the relative output of the woofer. The midrange is pretty small, and has not the power to operate full fledged in that region. There is a trick in the filter, applying from 0.5 to 2.2 Ohm is series with the woofer to dampen deep bass (take sufficient power here, so connect multiple resistors in parallel).   

Another effect that can be heard are internal cabinet resonances. When using a 4.7mH choke, the internal cabinet resonances of the woofer are more audible, and a 5.6mH choke just seems to sound more OK in this specific situation (listen to the woofer in isolation; you can simply spot it). It also attenuates the crosstalk of the grill to the speaker cabinet in the 400Hz region.

Then it finally comes towards whether you want to go for a "warmer" or more "brilliant" sound. This depends a bit on your taste, room acoustics, and also on the specific music/CDs used. It mainly determines how the low-end + fundament are tuned towards the mid, and how treble is tuned towards the mid.

I play a bit of acoustical guitar, which makes me very sensitive to the fundament region (125-350Hz); as I'm always sitting close to my guitar, guitars should sound full bodied. The nylon strings should sound harmonic rich, and a guitar should not sound like a "harp", where the enclosure is missing. I visit classical (acoustical) concerts often, and there you realize that in hifi-land most equipment is overdone with treble. Orchestras don't sound that transparent (though is some registers can sound airy), and only when triangles or cymbals are used, there is an abundance of treble. I'm allergic to sibilance, so this explains why in my speakers the treble is not very exposed. Overall, that creates a rich and harmonic sound, where instruments in an orchestra become distinguishable due to their harmonic character.

The current filter I'm using is shown below, but it is open to modify at own tast. By increasing/lowering the values of R5 and R8, one can tune the speaker to taste (lower values are more mid/treble). Start with the tweeter, then adapt the mid, and do a couple of iterations. More presence can be obtained by lowering C6 (between 10 and 15uF; be aware of "walking treble" as the mid and tweeter are both working together when lower C6 too much), or increasing C8 from 3.3uF to 3.9uF. Increasing C5 (up to 68uF) gives more fundament and body, but it also impacts imaging (less pinpointing). Tune at your will; it'll depend at your room as well as your preference.

Last but not least, one versions of the filter that could serve as a good starting point for starting experiments, plus the one Ohm trick.

Have fun, and enjoy Xmas with your family (don't hobby too much  )

[SCK]

A happy New year to the dutch diy community!

And thanks a lot for your input concerning the milestones!!!!
I really can't wait for the delivery of drivers and coils...

There are still some questions...
- The dampening: I did it according to Tony gee's suggestions. Bitumen, a layer of felt and sonofil.
Can I leave it that way, or has it to be different with the milestones?
- Because oft the many possibilities to tune the sound by different resistor- and cap- values, I thought about moving the crossover on the outside oft the cabinet. Does anything speak against this idea?
- How much amp power do the speakers need?
- what are your experiences with matching electronics and the speakers? What gear are you guys using?
My chain: audio-gd nfb1 DAC, Perreaux sm6 mkii preamp and classé ca201 power AMP.

[Marc Heijligers]

- The dampening: I did it according to Tony gee's suggestions. Bitumen, a layer of felt and sonofil.
Can I leave it that way, or has it to be different with the milestones?
- Because oft the many possibilities to tune the sound by different resistor- and cap- values, I thought about moving the crossover on the outside oft the cabinet. Does anything speak against this idea?
- How much amp power do the speakers need?
- what are your experiences with matching electronics and the speakers? What gear are you guys using?
My chain: audio-gd nfb1 DAC, Perreaux sm6 mkii preamp and classé ca201 power AMP.

• Dampening - I've glued bitumen to the walls, and then some pritex on top of it. After that, I've added longhair wool (example  here, very loosely by unwinding/wrapping it first, and filling the whole cabinet. If you apply too much, you also attenuate the deep bass. You can probably leave it as it is. You can test it easily; take a laptop with a music instrument program (e.g. Garageband from Apple), put it on piano, and just press the notes one by one. You will always hear some cabinet resonance, and it is easy to apply more or less whool to taste. The same holds for the mid; too much wool makes it sound dull. Underneath you can see the effect measured by a near-field woofer measurement.
• Crossover - Mine is still outside the cabinet. Make sure you use good thick wiring, and be aware that removing all external wiring and connectors will have some impact on the sound (all resistive), so you final tweaking needs to be done inside the cabinet (or just leave the filter outside). My intent is to build the crossover into the cabinets, but it is my lack of time that prevents me to do so.
• Power - Depends on your room, your style of music, and your reference loudness.
• I use an Ayre AX7 (60W/8Ohm), which is more than sufficient for my taste. Tube amplifiers in the 20W range do miss some juice according to my opinion. My cousin is using Hypex modules; more than sufficient power. Classé is always a bit on the brilliant side, so I guess you will end up with 4.7 or 5.6 Ohms in series with the tweeter.

[Cookymonster]

I had a Classe CP-50 / CA200 combination attached to my milestones speakers. But unfortunately I suffered major technical problems with the pre-amp, which got waisted finally.
As I had to look for a new amp,  I asked myself why not buying the amp which was used for the construction/design of the Milestones.
So I also ended up with the Ayre AX7e. ( I bought it from a mutual friend ).  This was a choice I haven't regret for a second. The sound is much richer than the Classé in this combination.
I actually had the chance to compare them side-by-side. The difference was much more than obvious.
In some way I feel shame. Marc did all the research and I just copied.  Isn't that the case for every Milestones owner ?
But every evening again, enjoying the music (and sound) through this beautiful gear, there is a moment of gratitude towards Marc.
Dank u Marc.       

[Marc Heijligers]

So I also ended up with the Ayre AX7e. ( I bought it from a mutual friend ).  This was a choice I haven't regret for a second. The sound is much richer than the Classé in this combination.
I actually had the chance to compare them side-by-side. The difference was much more than obvious.
In some way I feel shame. Marc did all the research and I just copied.  Isn't that the case for every Milestones owner ?   

Thanks for the nice words, nice to hear you enjoy the combo.

I have heard the Milestones at different places, with different amplifiers. My preference goes to the Ayre, I like its rich harmonic sound, in combination with its powerful response. I've also heard the Milestones with Hypex modules. There it depends very much on the pre-amplifier being used. In combination with a Borbely and a Jos van Eijndhoven audio attenuator it also had a very rich sound.

[Marc Heijligers]

FYI, in case you want to find details, my old website is up and running again: http://www.hifivoice.com/

[SCK]

I'm almost ready with the milestones and just waiting for the 0,22cfc coils and I'm terribly bad in waiting.

Marc, it's so cool that hifivoice is up again, so the whole developement-process can be seen and understood.
Thank you very much.
One question is open to me. Why did you change the cabinet from vented to closed?
Greetings
Sascha

[Marc Heijligers]

One question is open to me. Why did you change the cabinet from vented to closed?

I'm not sure why I did that experiment in the past, but I found out that the bass sounds more tight and integrated when closed.

[MechanicalAnimal]

Na een jaar bijna geen post maar eens eentje van mijn kant.
Iets meer dan twee jaar geleden ook een start gemaakt met de Milestones, nadat ik ze eerst beluisterd had natuurlijk.

wauw! 

die kast in verstek zo te zien is echt heel erg gaaf.

[Cookymonster]

Zo, het begon te kriebelen om het nieuwe filter dat Marc gepost heeft eens uit te testen.
Ik heb meteen van de gelegenheid gebruik gemaakt om nog enkele aanpassingen te doen aan de kast (vulling en bitumen).
En vooral, ik heb wat spaarcentjes geïnvesteerd in hoogwaardigere componenten.
Ik heb het dan over bandspoelen, overal, dus ook voor de laagsectie en het hoog.
Verder ook alle condensatoren (ook die in parallel) op niveau gebracht.
Aangezien mijn mid-sectie al Audyn Cap Plus had, heb ik deze veralgemeend.
Behalve voor de C8 in het hoog. Die kreeg een Audyn Reference.
Er zijn nog maar twee weerstanden. Dus, ach wat, een Duelund Cast dan maar. 
(die voor het mid was op de foto nog een MOX)
Dit alles om zeker te zijn dat het beste eruit gehaald wordt.

Het mid:


Het hoog:


Het laag:


Opgelet. Dit waren voorlopige foto's.
De meeste componenten waren nog met straps vastgemaakt.
Ik wilde het resultaat eerst horen voordat ik definitief vastlijmde...
Dat resultaat in volgende post
                                                                                                                                                                           

[Cookymonster]

Ik was best tevreden van het vorige filter.
Maar ik had ondertussen Milestones horen spelen die op sommige punten de mijne overtroffen.
Dat kan uiteraard ook veel aan akoestiek liggen, aan de aansturende elektronica en aan de hersenen (die blijkbaar een subjectief element zijn van het menselijk lichaam  )

Probleem is  dat ik niet alleen het nieuw filter van Marc heb ... maar ook de nieuwe componenten.
Ik deed beide aanpassingen  samen en  heb dus diverse variabelen.
Dat maakt dat ik weer heel moeilijk kan vergelijken; of beter gezegd: waaraan kan ik de verandering toeschrijven ?
Het filter of de componenten ?

Alleszins, het resultaat is opvallend.
Meer body, prominentere laagweergave en meer sprankel in het hoog.
Heb ik nu volledig ander geluid ?
Neen, zo ver zou ik niet gaan.
Het middengebied en de afbeelding waren altijd al bijzonder sterk.
Dit hoorde ik zelden bij ander luidsprekers.
Maar nu komt er een duidelijke boost in de laagweergave.
Kort, droog, diep en krachtiger.
In het hoog zit duidelijk meer sprankel. (zou ook het effect van de Reference cap en Duelund weerstand kunnen zijn?).
Alleszins, het is een tweak / upgrade die voor mij zeker de moeite waard is.
Ik zal later ook eens de kleine aanpassingen uitproberen die Marc opgeeft.
Nadeel is dat het filter bij mij niet extern zit...

Ik ben er een heel weekend koortsachtig mee bezig geweest.
En voordien ook al met de zoektocht naar componenten.
Ik heb er ook weer uit geleerd.


Mijn dank weerom aan de man die het onderzoek deed (en dat ook nog eens wilde delen). 





   

[torquemada]

I am almost finished with my Milestones. Only cabling and attaching the drivers left.
I decided to have crossover on outside of the cabinet, by creating a pocket in the lower back of the enclosure. I increased the total depth by 30 mm, and the lowest 400 mm of the back were moved 90 mm into the enclosure. Theoretically, the internal volume is approx 1 litre smaller, but the volume of the crossover is about the same.
I followed Marc's latest crossover design, and 12 awg wax coils, which is why the crossover got rather big.

[MechanicalAnimal]

Nice job 

[Cookymonster]

Great idea. I think I understand.
(except for the bottom of the speaker)
Do you have a picture of the rear of the cabinet ?
For the record. I removed some filling and pritex, with succes regarding the sound.
Seems you used quite a lot of pritex.
But all remains accessible, so you will always be able to remove some later...in case

[torquemada]

I will try to remember to take pictures of the rear. However, the top picture illustrates the "feature" fairly well.
The bottom of the picture is the bottom of the speaker - the right hand side is the back of the speaker.
I have placed the binding posts in the pocket, bottom right in the picture.
The cabling will go from the crossover into the speaker at the top of the pocket, in the middle of the picture.

[torquemada]

Here is a picture of the back side. The holes are for the bindning posts.

[Cookymonster]

Great. Makes it very versatile.
This way you can easily tune and change to your expectations.
It's much more difficult in a closed  built-in filter like mine.

So your binding post come out at  the bottom ?
Are you going to us (very high) spikes or outriggers ?

Is it piano - laquer ?
Did you do it yourself ?

[torquemada]

Fortunately, I have a very, very good childhood friend (Tomas Modin) who I is a carpenter with his own joinery. As a bonus, he is as interested in hifi as I is. 

I use the same foot/base as in Marc's drawings. The binding posts are standard WBT which will come out/point towards the floor. Thus, spades will work, but not banana plugs.

Tomas' joinery also is equipped for spray painting. The laquer is "standard paint" that Tomas uses for MDF, half matte white. We (he) tried first with high gloss (close to piano laquer), but it didn't fill and cover enough. Possibly, we could have sprayed the final (fourth) coating with high gloss, but the half matte was good enough. Also, I have two children (4 and 6 years) whose greasy fingers would leave more visible prints on high gloss.

[Cookymonster]

OK.
My kids have a safety-perimeter to respect.
I have land-mines around 1 meter of my speakers 

[salautom]

I love the white color! very nice!

(see image of mine...)